Betting Talk

CLV matters!

Dr. HDr. H Senior Member
edited August 2015 in Sports Betting
Most here are well aware of the value of CLV (closing line value), but many aren't. As football draws near, if you're looking to follow somebody, look at their line value more than their record. If a capper has an edge, it will show in their line value very quickly, while results vary a lot in the short term. Again, nothing new to most, but I see so many people start following a guy because he's "hot" and started off 10-2 or something, but a quick glance would show that said capper is not beating the close, so it's very easy to see that the success won't continue. Just some quick data from my MLB picks this year to help demonstrate how important it is:

Games where I have 0 or neg CLV: 36-34, 53.48 adj. win%, +1.61 units (I should be all rights be losing units here, I've run well.)
Games with CLV between 0% and 2%: 46-39, 55%, +4.65 units
Games with CLV between 2% and 4%: 57-46, 56.2%, +8.23 units
Games with CLV higher than 4%: 43-27, 62.1%, +14.24 units

Those are arbitrary cut points and this is not the best statistical analysis, but you get the idea. CLV matters. A lot. The bigger edge that you have over the closing line, the more likely you are to win and the more you're going to win. Remember that as football comes up when evaluating your own plays and the plays of others.

Good luck!

Comments

  • Old-TimerOld-Timer Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    Great information and something that is needed to hear from time to time. I'll also say that since you started and most here know that you've been here before 2013 the information you provide is appreciated. That's why a sports book will move a number on a bet made by one customer and not move a number made by another betting the same game and same amount or more. I've seen players bet 1k and move a number and others bet 5k and nothing happens. Everyone should track there CLV and if it's where it should be variance will be less of a concern as the year moves on. Tough game to beat when your not beating the close and getting the best of the number. The season will now begin very soon and the books are licking there chops Football is back.

    Good Luck
  • maidenguymaidenguy Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    Great article and something I forgot from time to time. Much has been written on this subject but if you are beating the closing line you have given yourself the best chance to win. It doesn't mean you will win but you have got the best of it.
  • jakenhljakenhl Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    Great information. And a couple things I would add. 1. And this is the most important one have as many books as possible. This can help you get the best of the line on just about everything you play. 2 make sure who you are following is a reliable poster. There are some who post here consistently. You guys know the names.. Then there are others like myself who will post during the slow times of the year and then disappear. Anyway best of luck to everyone this year.
  • RonbetsRonbets Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    DrH is absolutely correct on his CLV assessment. However, there is a downside with many of these hustler sportsbooks. If you continually beat the # and are flagged you will get limited or chased. Exceptions yeah, but few and far between. Be clever. An example of this happened to a friend and well known former poster. His Stations account was terminated even as a net loser on it.
  • jakenhljakenhl Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    Ronbets wrote: »
    DrH is absolutely correct on his CLV assessment. However, there is a downside with many of these hustler sportsbooks. If you continually beat the # and are flagged you will get limited or chased. Exceptions yeah, but few and far between. Be clever. An example of this happened to a friend and well known former poster. His Stations account was terminated even as a net loser on it.

    There is a major downside to that. That's why you have to stay under the limit and spread your plays around. There are soft lines all over in this town. If you skin them they're going to cut you . I use to play limits at Cantor placing wagers for someone else. It took me three years for them to realize they no longer have to target my account. I couldn't play at higher limits at all. Even though I had no association anymore with anyone tearing the lines up lines
  • Old-TimerOld-Timer Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    Ronbets wrote: »
    DrH is absolutely correct on his CLV assessment. However, there is a downside with many of these hustler sportsbooks. If you continually beat the # and are flagged you will get limited or chased. Exceptions yeah, but few and far between. Be clever. An example of this happened to a friend and well known former poster. His Stations account was terminated even as a net loser on it.

    Haha, funny the way these casino's are so afraid and a Stations account no less. A little off this subject on CLV but on Blackjack They backed off a guy will all know and have seen on TV many times playing poker and has been playing Blackjack for many years and is an $8million lifetime loser and also plays Baccarat. I know it's off topic on what's being discussed here it just makes me want to puke when I hear stories like that. The Mirage was the last MGM property that took his Blackjack play because I begged my VP and then about a trip or two later was told tell him his BJ is no longer welcome here. It didn't look good for the company that we were willing to take him and his BJ and Bacc play on. I was the one that had to tell him. Talk about being embarrassed. Ron your story is just as sad. Now I know the reason why both players were backed off but come on his CLV was there and they felt long term they had a good shot of losing to this person. Some people have to win but they want every last dime. Stations limits aren't going to hurt them. I was backed off Blackjack at the Sun Coast because of a power press (3x) with a simple running count. Ahh I do love telling stories
    about this town. I still can't believe what they did to the stardust business wise and then blowing it up. Talk about Vegas history.
  • Old-TimerOld-Timer Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    jakenhl wrote: »
    There is a major downside to that. That's why you have to stay under the limit and spread your plays around. There are soft lines all over in this town. If you skin them they're going to cut you . I use to play limits at Cantor placing wagers for someone else. It took me three years for them to realize they no longer have to target my account. I couldn't play at higher limits at all. Even though I had no association anymore with anyone tearing the lines up lines

    This is what makes the apps so great here now because they all move on air and you just spread it around.
  • jakenhljakenhl Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    Old-Timer wrote: »
    This is what makes the apps so great here now because they all move on air and you just spread it around.
    And the best of all. Is everything moves offshore first and then Vegas. You literally have a minute in most cases to make a play on a line move. I have money in every app available in town. And over the summer I even added Atlantis and peppermill from Reno. I think by next year are the end of next year we will have an app for just about every independent book in town.
  • RonbetsRonbets Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    I honestly believe the some of these R&Sportbook Directors(1 in particular) have a deep hatred for any player the semi-sharp. This is type of business that should create some type of rapport between casino and customer. The casino workers are taught to have pride in the company. Yet, slowly the corporation is making them obsolete. The loyalty that is proposed is a one-way street. Look what changes they are making. Change machines/ATM combined, slot machine tickets. Promoting slots and slowly reducing table games. Their automation cuts the expenses and cuts the jobs for all the ppl they stressed loyalty to. The monopoly is over and some corporate ships are starting to sink. Some BK looting has already begun.
  • TommyLTommyL Super Moderator
    edited August 2015
    Couldn't decide whether to start a new thread with this, but figured I'd just add on here...

    Is there a situation where CLV doesn't matter, that being those times when you're making a play very close to game time and know that you'll end up with virtually zero CLV? If you have a game that has taken some late steam and now has moved into your range, do you play it? Or do you respect the market and assume that those that moved it into your range know what they're doing and you don't want to fade the steam?
  • BetThemDogsBetThemDogs Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    TommyL wrote: »
    Couldn't decide whether to start a new thread with this, but figured I'd just add on here...

    Is there a situation where CLV doesn't matter, that being those times when you're making a play very close to game time and know that you'll end up with virtually zero CLV? If you have a game that has taken some late steam and now has moved into your range, do you play it? Or do you respect the market and assume that those that moved it into your range know what they're doing and you don't want to fade the steam?

    Amen. This has always been my gripe with the slavish devotion to CLV. Especially in college baskets with the smaller teams, many times it's 1 or 2 people moving the line. Somebody here with math skills needs to come up with an alternative to CLV that emphasizes plain ole line value. In the above scenario you get zero CLV when you're actually getting the best of the number.
  • Dr. HDr. H Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    TommyL wrote: »
    Couldn't decide whether to start a new thread with this, but figured I'd just add on here...

    Is there a situation where CLV doesn't matter, that being those times when you're making a play very close to game time and know that you'll end up with virtually zero CLV? If you have a game that has taken some late steam and now has moved into your range, do you play it? Or do you respect the market and assume that those that moved it into your range know what they're doing and you don't want to fade the steam?

    I used to play those spots a lot more than I do now. I agree that the market can't be perfectly efficient because there is an expiring clock on it, so any overadjustment just before game time can't be corrected before start. But I think worm described it well awhile back, to paraphrase - if sharp money is coming in right before game hammering +5 and I can grab -4, who do you think will win more often? You're assuming that the very sharp money coming in at this point is wrong - it's likely not. It's actually worm that pointed that out to me a couple years ago - track your plays that you make at post and see how you do. I didn't do well, which makes sense to me because I'm fading someone sharp with a huge bankroll.
  • Dr. HDr. H Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    Amen. This has always been my gripe with the slavish devotion to CLV. Especially in college baskets with the smaller teams, many times it's 1 or 2 people moving the line. Somebody here with math skills needs to come up with an alternative to CLV that emphasizes plain ole line value. In the above scenario you get zero CLV when you're actually getting the best of the number.

    Don't confuse getting the peak # with getting the best #. There's a reason it's the peak. If a game opens -3 and gets slammed all week long by sharp money and is -7 at close, getting +7 isn't getting the "best" #, it's just the peak. The best # was -3. As I stated above, it's my belief that fading sharp money that is coming in when limits are highest right before game time is not a profitable move long term.
  • BetThemDogsBetThemDogs Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    Dr.-- my main problem is that the guy who takes that peak number, and the idiot who lays it both get the same CLV. Who goes broke quicker?
  • Dr. HDr. H Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    Dr.-- my main problem is that the guy who takes that peak number, and the idiot who lays it both get the same CLV. Who goes broke quicker?

    Both imo
  • underwrapsunderwraps Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    Not always depends on certain situations. Most of the time, most of the major books paint the closing tape either up or down. Meaning, line is moving but wagering has closed. they do this because they know sharps track their CLV so they inflate it to boost their ego. Playing any game that close to post I think you better have solid info to do it, otherwise you will go broke like Doc says.
  • Dr. HDr. H Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    underwraps wrote: »
    Playing any game that close to post I think you better have solid info to do it, otherwise you will go broke like Doc says.

    Well at least this part makes sense.
  • underwrapsunderwraps Senior Member
    edited August 2015
    Haven't you ever seen a line move on the screen, but the game is off the board at most big books at the very end?
  • RightAngleRightAngle Admin
    edited August 2015
    Especially in college baskets with the smaller teams, many times it's 1 or 2 people moving the line.

    It isn't that much different in other markets. Those 1 or 2 people usually matter a lot.
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