Betting Talk

Political Futures and math question

homerplayerhomerplayer Senior Member
edited February 2013 in Sports Betting
So I took some positions on Romney earlier this year in March, April and July. Suffice to say given polling data that puts the election at a pick 'em, as it has for the last 6 months, I see taking Romney at anything better than +100 is good play.

So I tallied up my positions currently on Romney and the price equals out to +176.

I want to add more, but would that be a bad play?

My instinct is that would be, even though I feel anything + on Romney is a good play. 5D has him at +158 at the moment, so if I take another position it would reduce my current price from +176.

I am torn.

Not looking for any political views, but can anyone guide or suggest on strictly the math?

I have +176

Current +158 (5D)

Add to it Pinny has it +148

Neither guy polling over 48%

Would the final number I get offset the reduction in my current price given that my ending price would still be better than what is currently available?
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Comments

  • BigfistBigfist Member
    edited August 2012
    I might not be able to help from a math standpoint, but I can help from an electoral standpoint. Remember...polling can be meaningless for a lot of reasons. First, one has to read the fine details to see who exactly was polled? is it the public at large, registered voters, or likely voters. And remember..popular vote means nothing. Al Gore received more than 3 million more votes than George Bush in 2000, yet lost the election.

    The Democratic candidate, in this day and age, always has a leg up, because he is certain to win California, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Michigan, Maryland, DC, and yes, Massachusetts. He is also a big favorite in states like Rhode Island, Iowa, Minnesota, Oregon, Washington, and Wisconsin. If you give Obama all those states alone, he has (assuming I did my math correctly) 207 electoral votes, and 270 is needed to win. Obama would be a favorite also in Pennsylvania, Maine, Connecticut, Delaware, and Vermont, adding another 37, bringing him to 244. And while the Republican will generally be a heavy favorite in a lot of states, these states are generally less populated.

    In other words, Romney, mathematically, has no room for error. He basically has to win each and every large battleground state...Ohio, Florida, Texas, North Carolina, and Virginia. If Romney loses Florida or Texas, he is toast. Lose Ohio or North Carolina, and he is not finished, but is on life support.
  • bumpobumpo Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    I think you should look at each play as to whether it is +ev and not worry about your overall price. That said, if you're looking for the true price and you have to weigh polls vs. pinny, forget about the polls.
  • billymacbillymac Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    Be patient. 3 months, alot can happen. Great advice above by both.
  • KashmirKashmir Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    I don't know how a gambler can look at the electoral college and think that Romney at +100 is a good bet. He is behind the eight ball and looking worse by the day. I don't like Obama either. It's just pure polling and math and electoral college. Obama would have to admit he is a Muslim before the election to lose.
  • CoopsCoops Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    Kashmir wrote: »
    I don't know how a gambler can look at the electoral college and think that Romney at +100 is a good bet. He is behind the eight ball and looking worse by the day. I don't like Obama either. It's just pure polling and math and electoral college. Obama would have to admit he is a Muslim before the election to lose.

    Agreed, don't want to get into a political debate (I actually would, but don't know if BT is the right place). I think Obama at -160 is amazing value. Unfortunately, I bet with my heart and not my head and could never bet on him to win... But I can't see him losing...
  • MikeRASMikeRAS Senior Handicapper
    edited August 2012
    I'd be more concerned with how he is polling in Ohio/Florida/Virginia and any other swing states. It seems more important to me, the overall popular vote isn't a big deal with the way our electoral process works. At this point I believe Obama has more electoral votes in hand with the makeup of states.

    http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/electoral-map

    Feels like the election has been going on for a while but the reality is so much is still to come. Conventions, debates and how the economy goes the next few months. I don't really think it will be Obamas fault if somehow the Dow drops to 10k or something crazy the new few months but it would most likely do him in.
  • CoopsCoops Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    Obama is already working his magic with that bogus jobs number that came out Friday... He will do everything in his power to keep the market up until after the election. Romneys best chance is debates, and if he nails the VP nomination. It's an uphill battle though for sure.
  • KashmirKashmir Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    Coops wrote: »
    Obama is already working his magic with that bogus jobs number that came out Friday... He will do everything in his power to keep the market up until after the election. Romneys best chance is debates, and if he nails the VP nomination. It's an uphill battle though for sure.

    I don't hold much hope for him in the debates. His only hope is an economic crash, the VP nomination, and he releases clean tax returns. That last issue is not going to just go away.
  • CoopsCoops Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    Kashmir wrote: »
    I don't hold much hope for him in the debates. His only hope is an economic crash, the VP nomination, and he releases clean tax returns. That last issue is not going to just go away.

    Google PPT (Plunge Protection Team)... I wouldn't hold my breath on an economic crash... Unless Europe blows up I don't see the S&P going below 1250... However, I think we get a bloodbath in early 2013.
  • KashmirKashmir Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    Coops wrote: »
    Google PPT (Plunge Protection Team)... I wouldn't hold my breath on an economic crash... Unless Europe blows up I don't see the S&P going below 1250... However, I think we get a bloodbath in early 2013.

    Thanks but i'm familiar with PPT. It's a mess. I think i'm voting Gary Johnson.
  • RonbetsRonbets Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    Homer here is a suggestion:

    On August 31, day after the GOP Convention, look to possibly scalp back some BHO if available. A week later on Sept 7, day after the Democratic Convention, if feasible enhance your position on Romney.

    Careful, the reigning champ usually tough to dethrone. I'm currently long on BHO and looking to do just the opposite I've suggested to you. So far IMO, Romney doesn't seem to connect to John Q Public. Comes off a little too aloof.
  • homerplayerhomerplayer Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    Awesome input one and all. About to run to grab some groceries, so just a quick response for now with my limited insight and reasoning.

    Economy is shit.

    History has already been made.

    I don't think that a guy that ran on hope and change can run the same way in '12.

    Given the last two points, I don't see him generating the same voter turnout he did 4 years ago. He cannot run on his record, so his campaign slogan will be along the lines of "Romney is Satan's child and eats puppy dogs." I just don't think his change from a positive campaign to a completely negative one will play with the American public.

    Electoral maps I check are all over the place. Think Romney takes Wisc and Iowa, opposite of something mentioned above. Also see that Michigan is in play. Michigan? They love their Dems up there.

    I just really don't think either guy will run away with it, making either guy at +odds a solid play.

    Was also looking at a possible Arb if barry gets low enough.
  • KellyRaeKellyRae Junior Member
    edited August 2012
    Bigfist wrote: »
    In other words, Romney, mathematically, has no room for error. He basically has to win each and every large battleground state...Ohio, Florida, Texas, North Carolina, and Virginia. If Romney loses Florida or Texas, he is toast. Lose Ohio or North Carolina, and he is not finished, but is on life support.

    Not necessarily disagreeing with much of your post, but Obama winning Texas? Seriously? California and Michigan are more in play than Texas is.
  • BigfistBigfist Member
    edited August 2012
    The latest Rasmussen poll had Romney up 48-43 in Texas, with the rest preferring a different candidate or undecided. Certainly Romney is favored to win Texas, but I would definitely say it is in play. California..no way in play. I guess I would have to agree with you about Michigan...Obama has a six point advantage in the latest poll. So, yes it is in play, but in this case Obama would be favored.
  • KashmirKashmir Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    Awesome input one and all. About to run to grab some groceries, so just a quick response for now with my limited insight and reasoning.

    Economy is shit.

    History has already been made.

    I don't think that a guy that ran on hope and change can run the same way in '12.

    Given the last two points, I don't see him generating the same voter turnout he did 4 years ago. He cannot run on his record, so his campaign slogan will be along the lines of "Romney is Satan's child and eats puppy dogs." I just don't think his change from a positive campaign to a completely negative one will play with the American public.

    Electoral maps I check are all over the place. Think Romney takes Wisc and Iowa, opposite of something mentioned above. Also see that Michigan is in play. Michigan? They love their Dems up there.

    I just really don't think either guy will run away with it, making either guy at +odds a solid play.

    Was also looking at a possible Arb if barry gets low enough.

    You are thinking about this from your GOP point of view. You need to step back and look at the map and polling.
  • homerplayerhomerplayer Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    Kashmir wrote: »
    You are thinking about this from your GOP point of view. You need to step back and look at the map and polling.

    I am looking from my 'want to win money and recognize some value here' POV.

    The economy indeed sucks, he won on a vague, happy and positive campaign in '08, making history as the first African American ever elected President of the United States. That helped increase voter turn-out.

    As Jimmy once famously said "It is the economy stupid". Well, it sucks and is probably number one issue with the majority of voters that aren't already decided on whom they are voting for. The die hards will vote party no matter what. but the folks with a vested interest in the economy (unemployed, employed, small business owners) put the economy first and have to choose between a guy sporting some of the worst unemployment numbers over his first term and an evil dude that made a fuckton of money in real life.
  • billymacbillymac Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    Interesting point here..... Not that it will stay up after November.
    http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/breakout/stocks-obama-wins-stocks-down-romney-p-stovall-120943214.html
  • HowardBealHowardBeal Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    Sounds like someone is chasing his lost McCain money......

    Sunk cost my friend, save up your dough.....
  • KashmirKashmir Senior Member
    edited August 2012
    I am looking from my 'want to win money and recognize some value here' POV.

    The economy indeed sucks, he won on a vague, happy and positive campaign in '08, making history as the first African American ever elected President of the United States. That helped increase voter turn-out.

    As Jimmy once famously said "It is the economy stupid". Well, it sucks and is probably number one issue with the majority of voters that aren't already decided on whom they are voting for. The die hards will vote party no matter what. but the folks with a vested interest in the economy (unemployed, employed, small business owners) put the economy first and have to choose between a guy sporting some of the worst unemployment numbers over his first term and an evil dude that made a fuckton of money in real life.

    Read what I posted again. You are letting your personal political feelings interfere. There is no value on Romney at anywhere near +100.
  • homerplayerhomerplayer Senior Member
    edited September 2012
    Am I the only one looking at this with zero emotion and reading what the data portends (used from a liberal pov)

    Just added this morning to +176 with this position

    133750628-1 9/3/12 12:14pm Pending 11/6/12 6:00am Politics Other Sports 1002 Mitt Romney wins 2012 election +175* vs Barack Obama wins 2012 election

    Put half of what I wanted to. If Romney odds went up after GOP Convention, how high will they go after Dems Convention?

    Monday, September 03, 2012

    The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Monday shows Mitt Romney attracting support from 48% of voters nationwide, while President Obama earns 44% of the vote. Two percent (2%) prefer some other candidate, and five percent (5%) are undecided.

    During August, the number of Republicans in the country reached the highest level ever recorded by Rasmussen Reports. In each of the recent election cycles, the victorious party has gained in net partisan identification over the course of the election year.

    And there is for sure an enthusiasm gap in favor of the Reps.

    I just feel like we are still missing the point. barry won on hope, change, tears, women passing out at his events to vote for me cause the other guy eats puppies. Rep turnout will be higher, Dem turnout will be lower and independents are going to move to the Right.

    How much data do you need to see the value in +175? Romney will take the following: Ohio, Fla, N Carolina. Ballgame.
  • BigPermBigPerm Senior Member
    edited September 2012
    Knibb high football rules!
  • BigfistBigfist Member
    edited September 2012
    I am still not following your logic. Based upon what polls do you see Romney winning those three toss up states? Realclearpolitics.com has Obama leading in Ohio and Florida, and trailing in NC. The one state that has shifted recently is Michigan..going from likely Obama to toss up. As I said in my earlier post, the electoral map works against Republicans. You can talk all you want about popular vote..it means nothing. I see no value at all to a Romney +175 bet.
  • sparkyl2sparkyl2 Senior Member
    edited September 2012
    If Romney pulls Florida, Ohio, and NC, that still isn't enough. By my calculations that would put him at 253 electoral votes with VA (13) IA (6) Wis (10) Mi (16) Co (9) and NV (6) still conceivably in play although some of those would be a stretch to say Romney has a real shot at them. Like bigfist said, the electoral map is the GOP's worst enemy. The GOP always starts out with the deep south but the Democrats always start out with NY and Cal, effectively wiping out 10-11 states with 2.
  • BigfistBigfist Member
    edited September 2012
    Not only do the Dems have a lock on on NY and Cal, but add the big states of Illinois, Pa., and New Jersey to it. The only big state the Republicans can take for granted is Texas.

    Don't get me wrong..I am going to vote for Romney. But I would never BET Romney to win.
  • KashmirKashmir Senior Member
    edited September 2012
    I have to be honest, homeplayer. I hope you bet every cent you have on Romney. I'm not going to try to tell you why there is no value anymore.
  • namathfannamathfan Senior Member
    edited September 2012
    Check out Nate Silver's work at fivethirtyeight.com now part of the NY Times
  • TommyLTommyL Super Moderator
    edited September 2012
    namathfan wrote: »
    Check out Nate Silver's work at fivethirtyeight.com now part of the NY Times

    I'd never checked it out before. Thanks, a lot of good/interesting info there.
  • homerplayerhomerplayer Senior Member
    edited September 2012
    realclear has 221-191 barry with 126 toss up.

    so u guys see those numbers

    and compare it to the prices of 210/175

    and u understand that suggests barry has a ~67% implied probability of winning the election, yes?

    forget the politics, if your heart and/or knee-jerk will let you, and read that part again. I am telling you those numbers do not support one another. either the polling data is incorrect, or the price is incorrect. so we have the following

    if polling data is correct, price is wrong and romney is +EV

    if polling data is incorrect, price is still wrong, but you would need a crystal ball to see which side is +EV. and since we have no crystal ball inhouse, neither side is +EV.

    i can articulate why romney is +EV in this situation as i see it, so feel free to support your position that barry at -210 is a solid play.
  • namathfannamathfan Senior Member
    edited September 2012
    homerplayer...check out post #27.

    For me Silver blows away the RCP stuff.
  • homerplayerhomerplayer Senior Member
    edited September 2012
    namathfan wrote: »
    homerplayer...check out post #27.

    For me Silver blows away the RCP stuff.

    yes sir, did that. but, as with everything else, i consider the source.

    much like folks on BT consider the source of this thread as being biased.

    also noticed his state by state map giving obama nev, col, wisc, ohio and va, despite all being well within the margin for error in the polling data. i also wonder what poll he is looking at that gives barry 50%+, despite him polling at 44%. strange results. would love to see the internals on every one of his graphs.

    i will, however, make as many notes, or copy and paste because he sure is throwing out some precise scenarios. and if he is right, then 4 years from now i will tail or fade.

    and i thank you for the words of caution.
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