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Interesting Article on Touts and Mainstream Media

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Comments

  • namathfannamathfan Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    Finally.
  • MattrudMattrud Junior Member
    edited February 2014
    So I didn't want to self-promote and post my own article here, but I'm the dude that wrote it, and as you can see, I'm a forum member. I was much more active at BeyondTheBets, FYI.

    Thanks for sharing. I really appreciate it.

    If anyone has comments/questions/complaints, please post 'em here, email me, tweet me, private message me... whatever. Not looking to self-promote, just want to get the good info out there, since most writers are so damn clueless. I'm young and probably know a lot less than most of you guys.
  • GoatsGoats Head Moderator
    edited February 2014
    Hey Matt, good to see you're a member here.

    We don't generally allow posters to ask to be contacted via personal sites, e-mails, social media, etc. (I know you meant no harm, no worries). But more important than the site rules, I think it would be more beneficial to everyone if they posted their comments/questions in this thread anyway.
  • groovinmahoovingroovinmahoovin Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    I've been meaning to write something like that for a long time but haven't had the time to compile everything in one place. I've left some additional comments about Pregame's scams in the comments.
  • underwrapsunderwraps Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    So it’s not at all surprising that CNBC resorts to trotting out underperforming money managers as guests on their shows.

    That's a good one and so true. Great article. Good job.
  • groovinmahoovingroovinmahoovin Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    I think the funniest comments in that article were the ones from the obvious shill "JamesFromVegas" implying that Edward is biased because Pregame competes with him. That's like saying McDonald's competes with Robuchon because they both sell food.
  • MattrudMattrud Junior Member
    edited February 2014
    Goats wrote: »
    Hey Matt, good to see you're a member here.

    We don't generally allow posters to ask to be contacted via personal sites, e-mails, social media, etc. (I know you meant no harm, no worries). But more important than the site rules, I think it would be more beneficial to everyone if they posted their comments/questions in this thread anyway.

    Yup, definitely no harm meant. Thanks for clarifying, and I'll definitely be monitoring this thread for comments/questions.
  • blackbullblackbull Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    I love the intended to be sincere question in the comments from someone attempting to rebut the article: "Pregame competes with RAS right?"

    Hahahaha!!!! No sir, not even in the slightest :)
  • groovinmahoovingroovinmahoovin Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    My suggestion for the article would be to compile more concrete evidence of the various Pregame scams and try to get that article some more mainstream attention. The problem with a lot of the Pregame fraud is that a lot of it is tough to prove since the only evidence comes from forum posts and requires paying extremely careful attention.

    For example, with Fezzik's picks, I've specifically caught them doing things like

    1) including picks in his $25/per play record that were never for sale. A subscriber asked "Where did those two plays come from, I didn't get them" and Fezzik said they were BLAP plays. Of course, both of those picks were winners.

    2) grading free plays that were doing well an hour into the game as 2 or 3 unit plays, claiming they were "premium free plays." But other picks that were labeled "premium free plays" that looked like crap an hour into the game stayed graded at "0 units."

    3) selectively deciding which free plays go into his record at all. Some of the free plays he gives out on his "Fezzik's Focus" end up in his record, and some don't

    4) I already posted about the BLAP/LVA discrepancy in the comments.

    There's a very simple way to avoid all these questions--simply post all plays immediately at kickoff/tipoff, like RAS does, or have a neutral 3rd party verify the record. ComptrBob did a fantastic job of tracking Fezzik's record for years, so if RJ was interested in complete transparency, he would have Bob track the record. The fact that RJ declines the offer speaks volumes to RJ's lack of credibility.

    The one problem is that RJ Bell is an experienced scammer and always has an answer to everything, typically a snarky "Who are you? I have 70k Twitter followers and have been quoted in the NYTimes and Wall Street Journal etc," and the only way to prove most of this stuff is via forum posts, which is why obvious shills like that JamesinVegas buffoon (if he isn't a friend of RJ's or somehow affiliated with Pregame I'll quit gambling forums forever) have the easy escape of the "anonymous forum posts" defense.
  • procapprocap Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    That's like saying McDonald's competes with Robuchon because they both sell food.

    +1

    this might be the line of the year in forumville.
  • procapprocap Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    Reading this article tilted me a good bit. These clowns couldn't pass an intro to handicapping class, let alone originate +EV picks in all major markets. It literally makes me want to throw up knowing RJ Bell is featured on ESPN, Grantland, etc and is probably clearing a pretty penny in the process. All while I walk several blocks to and from work in the worst winter in history to earn what I'd consider a small paycheck.
  • eug44eug44 Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    i think all the advice that groovin provided is right on the money, if you are willing to take the time to modify the article and make it more "mainstream" you can reach out to major publications to try and get it published (if that is your intention).

    I am shocked no one mentioned Susan B - her comments on violation of code of ethics tilts the fuckin shit out of me. get lost lady!

    you can also look into the story how one of the pregame clowns scammed one of the users by having them set-up an account with a local, going bust and disappearing, Mike Hook was his name I believe. it's like employing a drug dealer at a rehab facility.
  • blackbullblackbull Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    As much as these clowns tilt me as well (b/c of the recognition they get), I'm actually glad they exist and welcome more of them. The more sheep that are bred out there, the more meat for the wolves. JBH.
  • groovinmahoovingroovinmahoovin Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    I thought a site like Deadspin might be a good outlet for an RJ Bell/Pregame expose, since they like criticizing Grantland and ESPN, and in this instance, deservedly so.

    One of RJ Bell's recent excuses why he doesn't keep accurate records is because "these guys hit 55% but no one wants to buy a 55% picker's picks, so we have to advertise the 21-5 hot streaks." Of course, none of them hit anywhere close 55%. Even Fezzik's past-posted and fabricated BLAP record only won 20 units over 1000 plays, which normalized for -110 is around 53.5%
  • MattrudMattrud Junior Member
    edited February 2014
    My suggestion for the article would be to compile more concrete evidence of the various Pregame scams and try to get that article some more mainstream attention. The problem with a lot of the Pregame fraud is that a lot of it is tough to prove since the only evidence comes from forum posts and requires paying extremely careful attention.

    For example, with Fezzik's picks, I've specifically caught them doing things like

    1) including picks in his $25/per play record that were never for sale. A subscriber asked "Where did those two plays come from, I didn't get them" and Fezzik said they were BLAP plays. Of course, both of those picks were winners.

    2) grading free plays that were doing well an hour into the game as 2 or 3 unit plays, claiming they were "premium free plays." But other picks that were labeled "premium free plays" that looked like crap an hour into the game stayed graded at "0 units."

    3) selectively deciding which free plays go into his record at all. Some of the free plays he gives out on his "Fezzik's Focus" end up in his record, and some don't

    4) I already posted about the BLAP/LVA discrepancy in the comments.

    There's a very simple way to avoid all these questions--simply post all plays immediately at kickoff/tipoff, like RAS does, or have a neutral 3rd party verify the record. ComptrBob did a fantastic job of tracking Fezzik's record for years, so if RJ was interested in complete transparency, he would have Bob track the record. The fact that RJ declines the offer speaks volumes to RJ's lack of credibility.

    The one problem is that RJ Bell is an experienced scammer and always has an answer to everything, typically a snarky "Who are you? I have 70k Twitter followers and have been quoted in the NYTimes and Wall Street Journal etc," and the only way to prove most of this stuff is via forum posts, which is why obvious shills like that JamesinVegas buffoon (if he isn't a friend of RJ's or somehow affiliated with Pregame I'll quit gambling forums forever) have the easy escape of the "anonymous forum posts" defense.

    Great suggestions; thanks a ton. Full disclosure here -- I wrote the article in just about one full work day -- it was definitely a bit rushed. It's tough for me to devote a lot of time to one story given the BS economics of the blogosphere (I usually write ~6-8 short posts per day), but I would really like to do so with this (or something related).

    I'll definitely be on the lookout for anything that catches my eye. You're completely right -- it's annoying that forum posts are the only "proof," but first of all, PREGAME should be the ones having to prove THEIR worth, and obviously it's tough to explain to people that a forum like this isn't your average message board. That's why it took me so long to start writing this -- it was tough to make a convincing argument, even though this stuff is all obvious to anyone who pays attention.

    And just so you guys know, somebody at Pregame posted the article in their forum, in a thread titled, "Pregame portrayed in a negative light." Deleted like an hour later. Ha. Typical. They didn't even say they agreed with me. It was, here's an article, "do you guys think of Pregame in the same way?"

    It's like Russia over there. RJ Putin.
  • groovinmahoovingroovinmahoovin Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    blackbull wrote: »
    As much as these clowns tilt me as well (b/c of the recognition they get), I'm actually glad they exist and welcome more of them. The more sheep that are bred out there, the more meat for the wolves. JBH.

    I'm a bit conflicted because from a purely selfish perspective, I do indirectly profit from these idiots giving bad advice, and I don't feel bad at all for some degen who pays $25 for a "lock pick" from one of these guys because he's too lazy to do the work himself. But on the other hand, the mainstream media really needs to be held to a higher standard here.

    I do laugh that Fezzik now has such little shame left that he has no problem being shown on TV making $100 and $250 bets and then a "large" bet of a nickel. I guess he's still betting larger than 99% of touts do but come on. If Marty showed up on my doorstep with the Delorean, one of the first things I'd do would be introducing Fezzik 2004 to Fezzik 2014.
  • procapprocap Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    I've been meaning to write something like that for a long time but haven't had the time to compile everything in one place. I've left some additional comments about Pregame's scams in the comments.

    Then why not help Matt turn this into a really solid piece? The basis is solid. If stronger evidence can be presented in the article I'm willing to bet this is something Deadspin would be interested in posting. I don't think anyone's going to disagree when I say you're easily the best writer in forumville. You already spend enough time exposing Fezzik/Pregame on the forums, so why not just devote that energy into this one article? It could have a MAJOR impact on the tout industry.
  • blackbullblackbull Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    I'm a bit conflicted because from a purely selfish perspective, I do indirectly profit from these idiots giving bad advice, and I don't feel bad at all for some degen who pays $25 for a "lock pick" from one of these guys because he's too lazy to do the work himself. But on the other hand, the mainstream media really needs to be held to a higher standard here.

    I do laugh that Fezzik now has such little shame left that he has no problem being shown on TV making $100 and $250 bets and then a "large" bet of a nickel. I guess he's still betting larger than 99% of touts do but come on. If Marty showed up on my doorstep with the Delorean, one of the first things I'd do would be introducing Fezzik 2004 to Fezzik 2014.

    I hear you my man. One thing that has increasingly become apparent to me (and I believe Goats mentioned it in "The thread that must not be named" :) ) is that many simply don't want to be helped. Or they just want to be given everything. So that attitude helps solidify my apathy towards them losing their money. Now, I still try to help those who genuinely care/work hard. I mean, hey, I wouldn't post if I didn't care; but in the end, the old model is dying and the zero-sum market is digging it's heals in. The more others lose, the more opportunities I stand to gain. Therefore, if R.J. wants to herd up some sheep and parade them in my backyard; he's really more of an ally than foe. People may not like that reality, but again: JBH.

    And I've long given up on the mainstream media. They hurt our industry enough w/ all the b.s. they spew which I don't see stopping anytime soon. So if there is an ancillary benefit to all their spin, deception, miseducation, etc., I'm going to take it without complaint until they are first held accountable for the gigantic false-light that they shine on our industry.
  • groovinmahoovingroovinmahoovin Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    Speaking of portraying the industry in a bad light, the one thing that RJ and Pregame do that really, really gets on my nerves is that they sometimes claim they lost bets because the game was fixed. Fezzik actually said that about a CFB game this year--he faded some RAS move and when the team he picked played absolutely horribly, he claimed the game was fixed and he said something about "suspicious line moves." I don't think there's anything that portrays sports betting in a worse light than the perception that games are rigged.
  • groovinmahoovingroovinmahoovin Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    procap wrote: »
    Then why not help Matt turn this into a really solid piece? The basis is solid. If stronger evidence can be presented in the article I'm willing to bet this is something Deadspin would be interested in posting. I don't think anyone's going to disagree when I say you're easily the best writer in forumville. You already spend enough time exposing Fezzik/Pregame on the forums, so why not just devote that energy into this one article? It could have a MAJOR impact on the tout industry.

    I made a bunch of comments in response to the article where I basically did that, summarizing some of the most blatant Pregame problems, and the author is free to use any material I've shared.

    I actually had a discussion with some people on another forum about writing a Pregame expose, but the problem was that I wasn't sure where to begin. But I'm happy to share all the evidence I have with anyone who's interested.
  • blackbullblackbull Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    Speaking of portraying the industry in a bad light, the one thing that RJ and Pregame do that really, really gets on my nerves is that they sometimes claim they lost bets because the game was fixed. Fezzik actually said that about a CFB game this year--he faded some RAS move and when the team he picked played absolutely horribly, he claimed the game was fixed and he said something about "suspicious line moves." I don't think there's anything that portrays sports betting in a worse light than the perception that games are rigged.

    I completely agree with you on that and allow me to revise that last part of my statement as I thought about it and realized that the last paragraph of my previous statement wasn't an entirely true reflection of how I felt:

    Look at the financial markets = more corrupt than the sports gaming market will ever be. Have many know-nothing touts like the sports gaming market & they are also leading masses to the slaughterhouse. (& I won't even go into the massive amount of corruption/"fixing" that goes on in the financial markets) Those touts, of course, are paraded through the mainstream media and regarded as experts. In spite of this, the financial markets are seen as pristine, while our market is portrayed as "shady." So to revise my prior position: I just want the Sports Gaming Marketplace to be given the same treatment as the financial markets, which is more than fair given that our marketplace is actually less corrupt. Further, that treatment still facilitates the herding of the "sheep" & their transport to "wolf" territory; which if any advantage player tells you is not to their advantage, he is lying to you.
  • kass101kass101 Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    eug44 wrote: »

    I am shocked no one mentioned Susan B - her comments on violation of code of ethics tilts the fuckin shit out of me. get lost lady!

    .

    I would wager plenty that "Susan B" is some slob intern for pregame who is tasked with monitoring blogs and sites for them and then trying to slander and discredit the writers. Nothing else makes sense.
  • kcburghkcburgh Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    Millman's podcast seems to be getting a free pass here..it has gone down hill big time over the past two years...
  • golfer1000golfer1000 Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    kcburgh wrote: »
    Millman's podcast seems to be getting a free pass here..it has gone down hill big time over the past two years...

    Not a fan of him after listening to the last podcast he did with ED. He basically wanted ED to give away all of his games for week 1 of football this year on his gay podcast. Guy is a major, major tool. Shocked Ed would even want to do it honestly.
  • Dr. HDr. H Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    golfer1000 wrote: »
    Not a fan of him after listening to the last podcast he did with ED. He basically wanted ED to give away all of his games for week 1 of football this year on his gay podcast. Guy is a major, major tool. Shocked Ed would even want to do it honestly.

    Of course he's going to try to get the picks, and of course Ed (you'll pardon me if I don't capitalize his entire name as though he's a deity) wants the publicity. Nothing shocking on either end. Millman is a moron, but this is hardly a reason why.
  • RonbetsRonbets Senior Member
    edited February 2014

    The one problem is that RJ Bell is an experienced scammer and always has an answer to everything, typically a snarky

    We've had our run-ins with an up and coming RJBell at the old Bettorsworld forum. It was around 2000. I wish they retained them. Bell's philosophies were also headache inducing similar to a late poster here. He was very close-minded for a guy new to the arena.
  • mjc257mjc257 Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    kcburgh wrote: »
    Millman's podcast seems to be getting a free pass here..it has gone down hill big time over the past two years...

    He has been thrust into a role with ESPN where he can’t possibly satisfy everyone. He has worked hard to not put scam artists on the show it seems. He’s in a tough spot. No one relevant is ever going to give away anything good on the show. But he still has to attempt to provide entertaining content. Tough podcast to maintain.
  • RonbetsRonbets Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    To appear on his podcast and give away your game/methods/ etc to satisfy one's ego is plain fukn stupid. The only advantage for a guest would be notoriety for future endeavors. Danny Sheridan parlayed a late night visit with Tom Snyder and picked a few winners. Zoom he took off from McDonald Ave in Alabama to become "our nations oddsmaker" OK lmao
  • mjc257mjc257 Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    Dr. H wrote: »
    Of course he's going to try to get the picks, and of course Ed (you'll pardon me if I don't capitalize his entire name as though he's a deity) wants the publicity. Nothing shocking on either end. Millman is a moron, but this is hardly a reason why.

    I think it is pretty ignorant to call Chad Millman a moron. He may not have the knowledge of a true professional bettor, but like it or not, he's put himself into a position where he has a hell of a lot of influence in this industry. Not saying I agree with that, just saying it's a fact.

    As far as trying to milk picks out of people, that's what people want to hear. So can't blame him for trying.
  • namathfannamathfan Senior Member
    edited February 2014
    "He may not have the knowledge of a true professional bettor"...2014 understatement of the year.

    He may be fairly well known in the industry, but as far as " having a lot of influence"? Not so much.
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